Free to Choose

I knew this topic would come up sooner or later. I'm pretty uncertain about it myself...

I think just because God knows what we are going to do doesn't mean we don't have freedom of choice. Because God is timeless, he can envision how things will turn out, say like watching an instant replay of Totti spitting. When we watch an instant replay of Totti spitting, we know he's going to do it beforehand, but Totti when he spat had freedom to choose whether he wanted to spit or not. God's instant replay was available to Him from the beginning, so He can see our lives pan out, while we still control our free will. That's my basic suggested explanation on this paradox, but I don't think it's very convincing myself.

ivan

OH I'VE JUST FOUND THE VERSE THAT SUMMARISES MY "'EVERLASTING' FORGIVENESS" POST AND IVAN'S "FORGIVENESS: ONCE AND NEVER AGAIN?" POST!

By now I hope we all agree that God can harden our hearts. The question now is, will God still forgive if you repent after your heart has been hardened?

Yes, but I can safely say, you won't repent if your heart is hardened. If you've witnessed the goodness of God so much and yet strayed from God for ages, you'll just find it too tough to repent. You'll keep telling yourself to repent, you repent verbally and ol', but in your heart you still won't feel thAt twist, if you knowaamean.

-erm, although the paragraphs above are only my opinions, I think they are quite true because they kinda surfaced in my brain while I was doing quiet time. and before I did quiet time, I asked God to reveal something to me, and it's really late at night now, 2:45am to be exact, haha, but I'm sure God wants me to write these things here-

Anyway, here comes the verse about when God will harden a heart:

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."
-Romans 1:21

Read the verse above 20 times..till it sinks in man..


Their thinking became futile
Their foolish hearts were darkened.



Here are some other verses which are related..read if you're not in a hurry...
"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator.. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts."
-Romans 1:25,26

Of course, the "lusts" in v26 can be metaphorical - simply the lust for worldly nature.

"Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind.."
"They became filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity." ||let me pause here to say that the word up there is filled. Paul is saying that the hearts of the hardened are simply filled with wickedness..you still can have the conscience, and the fear of the law, to not physically carry out these wicked acts|| "They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless."
-Romans 1:28, 29, 30, 31

Christianity is not about "hear only the good stuff". After the amazing grace comes the serious walk with God.

-Ryan- (signing off for this post, and the last one as well)

Freedom of Choice

Just a thought on freedom of choice..

I’m not sure whether God knows what we’re gonna choose next ..and stuff like that. Ok yeah one thing’s for sure, we ol’ have freedom of choice. But when we say that God is all-knowing, I don’t think we mean that God has infinite knowledge over things that are within our control. Yes he knows what’s ahead, indeed, in the book of Revelations, he makes it obvious he knows everything. But “everything” cannot encompass what we do with our lives. His “knowledge of everything” is, I would think, simply truths. The decisions we make certainly cannot be classified under truths…

God knows what’s ahead of us in the sense God has a plan for our lives. He marks it out for us but he doesn’t know whether we’re gonna adhere to his plans..

I would think God only knows outcome of decisions made by people who have flagrantly turned from God and has had his/her heart hardened by God. Take Judas. God knew he was gonna betray Jesus because God hardened his heart, I believe. Ah mean, God allowed Judas to follow the Christ wherever he went and taste and see how good Jesus was, yet he had his heart on things other than God. I guess God’s decision to harden Judas’ heart here is well justified.

It would be meaningless if God wrote a script. He wrote a revelation, but not a script. If God wrote a script, of course he would write one in which every person on planet earth would somehow meet some Christian and become a Christian and then earth would become heaven. But he did not because he wanted us to write the script so that there would be such a thing as faith, and would not because that would have defeated the purpose of Jesus’ death – to make salvation, which is achieved by choice, possible.

If God wrote a script, then we would say that Adam and Eve were not responsible for their sin. God is holy, why would he ever include sin in his script.. Why would his script involve passing Adam and Eve to Satan and having to go through the hassle of sacrificing his son to give us a chance to come back.. He sacrificed his son man, it was a sacrifice, so it had to be painful. Why would God wanna inflict grief and sorrow onto himself?

So God wrote no script, I’d say. I think we write it.

..I’m not sure how convincing this is..Haha..but well..yeah..God is 3D and we are 2D..
..to continue this 2D 3D analogy, which LT gave when explaining why Christianity is such a mystery..
You have a 3D object, say, a cube. You shine light onto it, you get the shadow of a square. That's 2D. God is 3D, we are 2D, and Jesus, the "shadow" of God, coming into a 2D world, is 2D.
The mystery about Christianity is that we can see the 3D through the 2D. (There's some verse for this..if you see me you see the father..or somethin' like that..anyone knows?).
It's a mystery because it's illogical. It's impossible to perceive 3D from 2D. Because it's illogical, it's wonderful. So that's the wonder of it all...The End. Haha.

Forgiveness: Once and never again?

My thoughts on forgiveness and repentance, before I go to sleep to prepare ahead of Portugal-Greece.

***

what happens to a Christian who lives a life of sin, only to repent at the last moment?

I believe that receiving your salvation in your first or last hour or life makes no difference at all. Here is the parable which gives me this belief: Matthew 20:16, the parable of the workers in the vineyard. No matter what time the workers entered to work in the "vineyard" representing heaven, they were paid the same wages- meaning, they got the same reward, that they got into heaven.

But this isn't the same as a Christian, who is fully aware of the need to follow God's commandments, yet consciously lives a life of sin and tries to repent for everything at the last moment. After all, it might be seen as "cheating" your way into salvation- keeping on sinning until the last moment.

Yet I think these people, too, will enter the kingdom of heaven. remember the prodigal son? The father welcomed him with open arms, despite him spending a good part of his life in sin.

I believe God never closes the door on anyone. He forgives and forgives, and I'm glad He does!

However, we must remember three things, and never take God's everlasting love for granted:

1. God only forgives if your repentance is genuine, sincere, and truthful. Like Pinocchio in Shrek 2, you can't hide your lies. Repentance is not saying sorry, or just promising not to sin again, it is a wholehearted resolve to change and to allow God to take over that area of weakness in your life.

2. As Ryan said, it is much harder to return to God the longer you've been away from Him. This is very true, I can testify to this! If you are sinning and don't stop it immediately you can turn away from God further and further. No matter how many times you hear of dramatic turnarounds in life and of a ex-killer/thief/drug addict who is now a pastor/missionary/evangelist, the fact remains that these are dramatic expressions of God's divine grace, and for one of these "success stories", there are a lot more who continue on the same path into oblivion. Repent now, rather than later. Sin can get you carried away.

3. The Lord is a just God, and although He has provided everyone with a way to heaven that anyone can cling onto at anytime, He also won't let works for Him on earth that are not recognised go unrewarded in heaven. We can store up riches in heaven because the Lord has shown us the way and given us the opportunity to do so. I don't know exactly what rewards we'll get, but I think they gotta be good! And the opposite is true, we have to answer to God for how we wasted or sinned in our lives on Judgment Day... so...

You know who to live for everyday!

-ivan-

Freedom of Choice

yankees and timberwolves speakin'

about dead faith.. i know there's this verse which i think Ivan quoted, about we're not save by faith, but through grace or something like that. saved by grace through faith? saved by faith through grace.. ahh think it's the last one.. i'm not sure ivan please give me the reference k.. ya so, if you don't have faith, you can't be saved right? so what if you have dead faith, it's the same as not having faith? so if you've dead faith means you won't be saved? so means if you ain't got works, or action, we won't be saved right.. ya ivan said something about faith without works is [some text missing], can have works without faith, but cannot have faith without works.. ya so pt is without works, can't be saved? oops i just saw the verse. by grace, through faith. ya my question still stands.

Oh here it is

James 2:14-18
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your[4] works, and I will show you my faith by my[5] works. 19You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[6] 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."[7] And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Anyway i would like to post a new question.
i've asked pastor richard and my own mom and many others when i was young, but not satisfied, even till now..


If God knew what we were going to do it before we've done it, and if we put ourselves in God's shoes, then don't we have no freedom of choice.. as in parallel it to a play. and God is the scripwriter, and he knows everything that happens. The only flaw in this analogy is that the actor doesn't have a choice of what he wants to do.. cause he's instructed to by the script. I know we have total freedom of choice. In our lives there isn't a script, but then how come God knows what we're going to choose? So if God knows what we're going to choose, don't we have no choice but to do the thing that God knows we're going to do? Cos if we don't do that, then it means God made a mistake, and that's impossible.. ya it's really quite complicated, but then again, i said earlier that God is beyond our understanding, for he is Greater than us.. yup so anyway just post this to ask, maybe i'm totally shrouded in my understanding of this and you guys can help..

Faith & Love

Anyway, if you couldn't have guessed, it's Ivan who's posting.

Back to where I was!

2. What does dead faith entail?
Read: James 2:14-26
James 2:17: "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

If this passage doesn't wake sleeping Christians up, I don't know what will!

Those who profess themselves "Christian" but do not live their lives out like they should- that is a dead faith. If you truly have faith in God, you will NATURALLY carry out His works. Therefore, if you have faith but no works, your faith is a DUD, and so is your assurance of salvation!

And of course it would be apt to say here that we are not saved by works either, just that works are the natural proof of a living, true faith. To recap another memory verse: "For it is by grace, thhrough faith, that you have been saved- and this not from yourselves, it is a gift from God- not by works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 Proclaim Christ: Salvation Not By Works, Series B, Week 4

3. "In the absence of faith, love would struggle to exist." - Kam, R.

I must confess that I don't get this. Exactly what "love" are we talking about? Love towards the object of faith, or love as a whole?

Or let me hazard a guess... are you saying, Ryan, that if we believe not by faith, we do so by proof, a cold, mechanical proof that requires no love?

4. "Faith is our expression of love to God, that's why faith pleases God." - Kam, R.

What is the relation between faith and love? I don't think faith is the actual expression of love. It certainly is a prerequisite- you can't love something you don't believe in, but more than that, I think obedience, and not faith, is the expression of love to God. Once again, John 14:21...

"Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves Me. He who loves Me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show Myself to him."

Feel free to disagree.

Anyway, I must say that spiritual discussion is very beneficial to me and my own spiritual life. it forces me to think about issues, to read my Bible, and look at the things wrong in my own life...

There are two more discussion threads: on the Spirit, and on forgiveness. I'm too tired to write about them today... but there's a lot of good stuff to discuss! Let's really make this blog chunky...

Faith and Predestination

I think I'll do the job of summarising our discussion so far, so that it will be clearer to everyone. So from God's existence, we have come to faith.

Here's what we have agreed upon, so far:

Faith is believing in something we cannot see, and that we cannot prove God by logic.

those who believe without having a "sign" are more blessed than those who do.

If there was enough evidence to prove God would exist, there would be no faith.

Here are the discussion points:

1. david's question on God instructing Thomas to believe- did God give Thomas any choice to exercise his faith, if he showed Him plainly His scars? and if He instructed Thomas to believe, does He similarly choose others to show Himself to?

2. dead faith. Ryan's actually touching on this in his post on forgiveness...

3. ryan's assertion, "in the absence of faith, love would struggle to exist."

4. ryan's second assertion, "faith is our expression of love to God, that's why faith pleases God."

so let's begin!

***

1a. Why did Jesus show Thomas His scars so plainly, such that Thomas had no option but to say "My Lord and My God"?

I think that for most people, there is enough doubt as to whether or not God exists such that they can exercise their faith and believe. but in a few cases, God shows Himself more clearly to other people. Thomas is one; I can think of another, Saul's miraculous conversion on the road to Damascus.

With such evidence, I think it can be said that their belief in Christ's resurrection and redemption does not require them to exercise their faith very much. Why does Jesus do this? I think for a few people whom He calls into His service, He does so more deliberately and forcefully because He has a plan for their lives, and He needs to call them. Look at what these people did after they believed: Paul was one of the most fervent of Jesus' early disciples, while Thomas although not mentioned in Acts, was still part of the "eleven apostles" that formed the mainstay of the early church.

Furthermore, faith is not only exercised at the point of accepting Christ into one's life. I believe we exercise our faith everytime we trust God to take care of problems in our lives, when we obey God's calling and sacrifice things we hold precious to us, when we share God's Word to others, etc. Therefore, although Thomas and Paul may not be as "blessed" when they accepted Christ, their faith grew because they exercised it in their spiritual walk. They could easily have lost their faith and stopped believing at any point, but they chose to exercise it, and it grew. My point is, even if God gives you little chance but to believe, you still have to make your faith count. As we know, faith without works is dead!

1b. Does God selectively choose who He wants to show Himself to?

The underlying assumption here is that if the above is true, those who do not believe or have their hearts hardened by God are not to blame, since God has predestined who He wants in heaven.

There is a verse which talks about God choosing us even before we were born, calling us out of darkness into His holy light. Does anyone know where to find that verse? I can't remember.

This is something I'm still puzzling over, too. until somebody can find that verse for me so we can discuss this properly, let me just say this- that I think God sets out plans for everybody before we were born to do His work, and He gives us ample chances to follow the path. He has called everybody out of darkness, simply by offering us a path to salvation that we did not have before. David, because you believe, I know that God will show Himself to you in some way.

If we DON'T believe, however, i.e. the world, can we say that God did not show Himself to us, and therefore we cannot believe? I think that, if God was to "harden His heart" to you like He did the Pharoah, it is our own original defiance to God that causes Him to turn away. I believe Pharoah had already made up his mind to defy God, and God therefore did not let him see the light. If you want God to reveal Himself to you, I am sure He will. It is not us that should wait for God to reveal Himself to us; it is us that should seek God first!

I'll stop here for the moment... I can't believe I've written so much, and it's only the first point.

"Everlasting" forgiveness?

I think the example on Thomas is an excellent one... Evidence alone cannot bring about conviction. We believe, then we taste and see; not see, then believe. Yeah it's all about faith. Our evidence IS faith. For if God gave us all the evidence atheists ever demanded, faith would not be able to exist. And in the absence of faith, love would struggle to exist. ..think about it.

Faith is our expression of love to God, that's why faith pleases God.

I'd like to share my lil thoughts on forgiveness..
I think some christians do fancy this notion: I can carry on living this "worldly life", then when I get really old or somethin', I'll start repenting and living the life God destined me to live After all, God's forgiveness is everlasting, ain't it?

Now we know that God's love for us is everlasting, so his forgiveness is everlasting, so it's ol' fine if we live the life we wanna live now..and repent at our death bed.

Now..
Satan's 'love' for us is everlasting as well...as soon as we slip, Satan's ready to catch us. He wants us as much as God wants us, ie. he 'loves' us as much as God loves us.

So now Two "everlasting"s clash. When Two "everlasting"s clash,

and none will compromise,

it's down to the mortal, ain't it.

So we make the decision, which "everlasting" to join.
If we put a foot into Satan's "everlasting", God tries to give us a second chance, knocks on our door..makes us feel guilty for not doing quiet time?..but if we remain defiant, Satan's "everlasting" gets a grip of us.

And our decision to follow Satan becomes everlasting.

This time, I would think God would not give us anymore chances because we have clinged on to an everlasting, somethin' perpetual, you see.

If God can harden Pharoah's heart, why can't he harden ours?

I would think God did give Pharaoh a chance to make a decision for himself, but after Pharaoh made his choice, God let it be.

Revelations 2:21
"I have given her (Jezebel) time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling."
Revelations 2:22-23
"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. (v23) I will strike her children dead..."

God has turned his face from Jezebel.
Erm, the repentence mentioned in verse 22 is not meant for Jezebel..just in case you read a lil' too fast.

And if you're reading too fast, this sentence is to slow you down, so that you read my previous sentence again.
---

So if we believe in God and yet live the life of the world, God can turn his face from us..before we reach our death bed.
Anyway, I've grown to realise, that the logic to it is, the longer a christian stays oblivious of God, the harder it is for him to return to God.

ryan