Faith and Predestination

I think I'll do the job of summarising our discussion so far, so that it will be clearer to everyone. So from God's existence, we have come to faith.

Here's what we have agreed upon, so far:

Faith is believing in something we cannot see, and that we cannot prove God by logic.

those who believe without having a "sign" are more blessed than those who do.

If there was enough evidence to prove God would exist, there would be no faith.

Here are the discussion points:

1. david's question on God instructing Thomas to believe- did God give Thomas any choice to exercise his faith, if he showed Him plainly His scars? and if He instructed Thomas to believe, does He similarly choose others to show Himself to?

2. dead faith. Ryan's actually touching on this in his post on forgiveness...

3. ryan's assertion, "in the absence of faith, love would struggle to exist."

4. ryan's second assertion, "faith is our expression of love to God, that's why faith pleases God."

so let's begin!

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1a. Why did Jesus show Thomas His scars so plainly, such that Thomas had no option but to say "My Lord and My God"?

I think that for most people, there is enough doubt as to whether or not God exists such that they can exercise their faith and believe. but in a few cases, God shows Himself more clearly to other people. Thomas is one; I can think of another, Saul's miraculous conversion on the road to Damascus.

With such evidence, I think it can be said that their belief in Christ's resurrection and redemption does not require them to exercise their faith very much. Why does Jesus do this? I think for a few people whom He calls into His service, He does so more deliberately and forcefully because He has a plan for their lives, and He needs to call them. Look at what these people did after they believed: Paul was one of the most fervent of Jesus' early disciples, while Thomas although not mentioned in Acts, was still part of the "eleven apostles" that formed the mainstay of the early church.

Furthermore, faith is not only exercised at the point of accepting Christ into one's life. I believe we exercise our faith everytime we trust God to take care of problems in our lives, when we obey God's calling and sacrifice things we hold precious to us, when we share God's Word to others, etc. Therefore, although Thomas and Paul may not be as "blessed" when they accepted Christ, their faith grew because they exercised it in their spiritual walk. They could easily have lost their faith and stopped believing at any point, but they chose to exercise it, and it grew. My point is, even if God gives you little chance but to believe, you still have to make your faith count. As we know, faith without works is dead!

1b. Does God selectively choose who He wants to show Himself to?

The underlying assumption here is that if the above is true, those who do not believe or have their hearts hardened by God are not to blame, since God has predestined who He wants in heaven.

There is a verse which talks about God choosing us even before we were born, calling us out of darkness into His holy light. Does anyone know where to find that verse? I can't remember.

This is something I'm still puzzling over, too. until somebody can find that verse for me so we can discuss this properly, let me just say this- that I think God sets out plans for everybody before we were born to do His work, and He gives us ample chances to follow the path. He has called everybody out of darkness, simply by offering us a path to salvation that we did not have before. David, because you believe, I know that God will show Himself to you in some way.

If we DON'T believe, however, i.e. the world, can we say that God did not show Himself to us, and therefore we cannot believe? I think that, if God was to "harden His heart" to you like He did the Pharoah, it is our own original defiance to God that causes Him to turn away. I believe Pharoah had already made up his mind to defy God, and God therefore did not let him see the light. If you want God to reveal Himself to you, I am sure He will. It is not us that should wait for God to reveal Himself to us; it is us that should seek God first!

I'll stop here for the moment... I can't believe I've written so much, and it's only the first point.